As you finish the book, use this blog thread to react, reflect, ask questions, and generally provide feedback. Your ideas can be about the book content (Vietnam War & Tiger Force) and/or your thoughts on the book as a tool for learning about the war. Here are a couple of sites you may find useful as you contemplate your ideas:
1) http://www.tigerforcerecon.com/ (Thanks to Tom for reminding us we have access to this site to learn TONS about Tiger Force then and now!)
2) http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2011/03/29/134933267/pentagon-apologizes-again-after-new-pictures-of-kill-team-are-published
3) http://www.npr.org/2011/03/23/134800872/Soldier-Pleads-Guilty-In-Afghan-Murders (This NPR segment, which you can listen too as well, reveals more about civilians dying at the hands of the US military.)
Sunday, April 3, 2011
Week # 5: TIGER FORCE Reflection (Required)
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another website I found:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.327infantry.org/first/1st_tigers_troops
If you go to that website, you can find some of the people in the book and email them. That is kinda cool (and creepy), but I wouldn't recommend it.
ReplyDeleteIn response to Tiger Force, I must say, I thoroughly enjoyed the book. It really made me think about what war actually is, and what people go through before, during, and after. I do not just mean Vietnam, either. I am talking war in general. I guess I never really thought about war previously other than my general history class synopsis here and there throughout my education or the video footage we all see on the news. Call me naive, but it made me realize that war is not just about training at boot camp and then going to another country to fight for America. It is not about being away from your loved ones, or an excuse not to go to college. It is not about coming home to win awards and get paid the “big bucks.” Tiger Force made war real for me. It showed me the ugly truth about what these men and women experience, and how quickly they have to adapt in every situation during and after war. It showed me what their families go through while they are away and when they come home and how difficult it must be for everyone involved to adapt. I know that the Tiger Force platoon may have been part of an extreme circumstance, but I would bet that these sorts of platoons exist today.
ReplyDeleteTiger Force also made me realize (again, call me naïve) that war does not ever end. There is constantly battling all over the world. Innocent people are being killed at the expense of power and money. When does it end? At what cost will people wake up and realize that there are bigger things in life than power and money. It saddens me to know that my fellow American brothers and sisters have fought and are fighting a never ending battle. However, at the same time, although impossible, it makes me want to shake hands with each and every person who has dedicated any or all of their lives and say “thank-you.” “Thank-you for your bravery, for your dedication, and for making my life and my children’s lives better.”
Tiger Force was often gruesome, and it detailed parts of war that I never even imagined happening. However, it forced reality to sink in. It forced me to think “outside the box.” I feel embarrassed to think about how pathetic my everyday worries and stresses are compared to those who have fought or who are fighting wars. It forced me to put myself in those situations, and wonder how the hell a person could handle anything even remotely close to what they went through. All I have left to say is that Tiger Force really made me appreciate those who have fought for our country, those who are currently fighting for our country, and also those who will fight for our country.
Tiger Force is the first English book that I have ever finished so far. I really think it is a good tool to learn about the war. Before I came here, the history class I took in china was pretty much “facts education”. The teacher would give us countless history facts which we had to remember. For example, when we learned about the china-Japan War, the teacher just told us when, where, how, why it happened, who was involved, how many people were killed, and who won the war in the end. Finally the teacher would tell us the Japanese soldiers were devils. That’s in. but I never really understand why as normal human beings, the Japanese soldiers would do such dehumanizing staff. I find my answer in the Tiger Force. The violence during the war involves psychological, physical, political, cultural, educational, military and social reasons. It was certainly not just because Japanese soldiers were “devils”, as my teacher told me before.
ReplyDeleteBesides it’s a good tool to learn about the war, it also gives us the answer why America Army lost the war. The reason of the failure was that the Vietnam War itself, not like WWII, was injustice. As a result, the soldiers did not know who they are fighting for. Before the tigers messed up, they thought they were fighting for the Americans, but as the war went on, they got confused. They were killing not only enemies, but also unarmed citizens, and they were defeated every month, but the Army was lying back home that they were winning the war. So they got messed up, especially when Hawkins became the leaders.
Tiger Force made me realize the conditions soldiers actually go through when they are in combat, regardless of location. Reading this book goes in depth about war. Instead of learning war though a history textbook, Tiger Force gives more of a closer intake on war and psychological input on the minds of soldiers. You have the opportunity to learn about the battalions, what each soldiers background is, how they behaved in Vietnam, etc.., "third-person" point of view as well as "first person." In this case, many soldiers such as Ybarra, Hawkins, Doyle, Barnett, and even Trout spun dangerously out of control, both physically and mentally. However, some kept their composure. Most killings made to unarmed civilians from US soldiers were unjust, "They are Vietnamese, we have to kill them"(Paraphrased quote from the quote). Some soldiers, like those above, have no soul. The seven month rampage in Vietnam controlled the soldiers mentality, which in some cases to people, is understandable.
ReplyDeleteThe VC were dominant throughout the whole war. The US had no chance in resisting them from winning the war, "They just keep coming." Regardless of how many the US soldiers killed, more VC soldiers appeared. The US tried to contain communism "containment policy," but it failed to work in Vietnam. As what Yiming said, soldiers/lieutenants who would return home would inform family members, friends, public that they were dominating the war against VC, but they were lying. I don't understand why our country would lie about losing a war. It may cause nationwide panic, but telling covering up important details about the war is even worse.
I feel terribly bad for Apsey. He has done years of research and interviews with soldiers in figuring out what soldiers have committed war crimes. All of his effort in conjuring up the Tiger Force case went to waste; court dropped all charges.
It is really hard for me to comment on the book; I don't really think it presents any literary value, but as a learning tool it's pretty effective. The authors did a ton of research, and in pre-internet years it took them some time to do that. I understand that for most "normal" people some stories from the book seem surreal, but as a combat veteran myself I did not find out anything extraordinary. War in Afghanistan was Russian "Vietnam". Just like American troops we never lost a battle, but at the end were defeated. Good thing I was not there for that.
ReplyDeleteAs for the atrocities committed by the members of Tiger Force, on some subconcious level I feel I may even understand them; not defend, but understand. War is not a picnic to begin with, and fighting in the jungle must have been hell on earth. Soldiers are humans, too; they can snap as well as anybody else, and blowing some steam may turn really ugly. I can never justify killing unarmed civillians, especially children, but VC was known for having kids doing dirty work for them, and operational security sometimes requires extreme measures. Not the way it was described in the book, though; there it looked like they were just blood-thirsty. Killing people to reach the operational goal, and killing people just for fun are different, but again, war is a dirty thing; there are things that I try hard to put out of my memory, too.
my posts keep disappearing.
ReplyDeleteThe authors also did a decent job at finding data from all available sources. The primary sources that they used were the CID records, interviews from the investigators, and interviews from some of the remaining Tiger Force members from 1967. The problem I have is of the 120 soldiers is the unit during the 7 month period of the book, 10 were KIA and 7 others died after the war due to illnesses. The book only mentions about 40 other names. So we only heard stories from half the soldiers in Tiger Force from 1967.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.327infantry.org/first/1st_tigers_troops
I think main reason the authors decided to collect their work, format it, and edit it into a book was for the shock value. At the time of the release of the book, the country was still in shock of the Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse scandal. If the authors did not have an agenda then they would have given the reader a chapter on the Mother’s Day Massacre and what affect it had on the team’s spiral downward. I also think near the end of the book the authors should have mentioned that Tiger Force continued to operate in Vietnam through 1970. The way the book is written no one would know that Tiger Force is still in operation today.
Make no mistake; I do not condone what these men have done. They were wrong and should have been punished decades ago. Unfortunately the Army decided to hide this because; they were afraid the team they created worked to well and got out of control. The things they had done were so outrageous and the government wanted to look past the defeat of Vietnam, not revisit it again. By the time this tragedy was discovered, it was too late. People had put the stuff behind them or moved on. Others knew that no matter what happens they couldn’t bring back the dead, so why bother with this story? Stories like this will always come around until old men stop creating wars and making the young people fight them.
I thought the authors of the book had a certain agenda for writing the book. It appears, to me anyway, that they already had an ending written. Only later, with the left over information they had, they decided to fill in the gaps so they wrote a book. It reminded me of a “cut and paste” approach to history. I will tell you why I felt this way.
ReplyDeleteFirst off, it is easy for those who have never been in the military to point out the faults of poor military decisions after those decisions have already been made. When the authors read about these incidences from the military records, I am sure things were not transcribed to the exact detail and certain details were missed. When a civilian writes down what happens in a car accident, they do not remember every detail and every person remembers detail from their own perspectives. I do not think the authors take into consideration that every firefight, ambush, assault, sniper attack, roadside bomb, pungi stake pit, watching a buddy get killed, and mines take an excruciating toll on the mind of anybody on the battlefield. After awhile the mind starts to play tricks and sees the enemy where there is none. This is when leadership needs to step in and maintain control over the unit.
After the Mother’s Day Massacre leadership and experience was missing in Tiger Force for the next several months. The massacre was the catalyst which started the freefall of the team, yet the authors failed to give it anything more than a passing mention. That event saw 2 soldiers killed and 25 more injured, out of 45 troops. That is an incredibly high rate of casualties. When I was in the Marines, over 20% casualty rate, which is more than 9, would have had devastating consequences for the unit.
ReplyDeleteI think my posts were disappearing because it was too long. So I cut and pasted them into sections. Unfortunately some of the sections were too long and now my posts are out of order.
ReplyDeleteThe order is as follows:
2nd post is beginning of analysis
3rd post is second part of analysis
1st post is completion of analysis
I liked the Tiger Force Book, as it was a good learning tool. The stories seemed to jump around from character to character, but I found that I was still able to visualize every story depicted in the book (without the pictures). Actually the pictures of the individuals made me more sickened and angry that they were never punished for their horrific crimes, as they looked young and were smiling enjoying the fact that they were alive, while innocent mothers and babies lied dead at their hands.
ReplyDeleteAgain I reiterate my thoughts on these crimes, are the American Governments wrong doings , in which they had full knowledge and continued to allow this to happen.
I do agree with Tom on some of the aspects of the book and how it was written. But sometimes the ugly truth or “shock value” is needed in order for people to see what was really going on, or “covered up”.
I can-not say about their true mind state, but we do know that the Military had intentionally enlisted men into Tiger Force that were mentally off, knowing they would be quick to kill anyone or anything. This is why the interviews of these survivors and recorders are probably accurate. Think of the time when the first statements were given by these men, and then to have that same story nearly 40 years later. They all played their role and obviously some managed to come back to reality. But many I believe followed the others as they seen them do, as they had no training into the Tiger Force except what they were shown by the others that were true to the initial units.
In all I found the book worth reading, It brought a better understanding of a reality that like Kristen said will never end. War is not always the answer and many things would not happen if people or Governments would worry about their own, as it has proven over time to escalate situations that may have not became so out of control.
Honestly, I don’t really like to read any book involve in history.
ReplyDeleteI read a few chapters and put them away but the Tiger Force is unlike those books, I literally could not put down. After finishing the Tiger Force, I say to myself that I’m not disappointed that I have to read it. This is a great book enrich in detail! The book takes me beneath the surface of a war and exposes everything wrong with the U.S. military policy in Vietnam: body count, free-fire zone, etc. As Hawkins became the leader, the tigers in their frustration, began torturing and killing hundreds of unarmed civilians, men, women and children. They were innocent people who do not want to leave their home. The book also deals with what happened to them all after the war. All the surviving members struggled to cope with life, and several killed themselves, or turned to alcohol and drugs to cope with the mental illnesses they had earned from their service. Personally, I feel sympathy for both the soldiers in the field and the civilians affected. Now I understand the horrors of combat, what war can make people do, what happens to soldiers in war when they lose good leaders and the long last effects it has on ones actions. No other book I have read quite explains war like this one. When it comes to the Vietnam War, most people have very strong opinions as to whether or not the United States should have been fighting there. No matter what your opinion is since the United States were there and it is important that everyone to be aware of how the United States came to be fighting there. Therefore, I strongly believe this book should make as a requirement for history class.
After I read the book "Tiger Force" this book is the one that I finished compare to the other books that I have to read. Personally, I feel sympathy for both the soldiers in the field and the civilians affected. The authors take the reader on a journey that shows how slowly, the checks and balances of distinguishing right from wrong were eroded away by the constant stress of battle without relief. However, the commanding officers who were made aware of the actions. A total failure in command and control was exposed that left hundreds of unarmed civilians, men, women and children dead.
ReplyDeleteI actually (very surprisingly, even to myself) enjoyed the book Tiger Force. Even though it was difficult me to follow the areas that they were moving from and two on a map (I’m pretty much geographically challenged) I still thought that all the moving and action going on was interesting. Some of the things that Ybarra did were quite disturbing to me, as well as some of the actions that the other men took, but I have never been in a war so I cannot say for sure what was going through the heads of the men at the time that they started acting crazy. I do think that it was mind boggling on how many men were corrupt, going from one (Sam) to almost all of the men in Tiger Force (in Sam’s group at least). I know that it is common for men (and women) to change when they go off to war because of all of the things that they see and have to do but I did not realize the brutality that some men end up being involved in, even people that you would never think would participate in such harsh actions. Another thing that both surprised, and did not surprise me, is the little to no punishment that the men received for their actions. While still in the war, it seemed as if quite a few officers went higher up and try to get rid of the brutal men in order to try to prevent corruption. From the perspective of the book however, no one cared. It was the war and the real rules seemed to be, that there were no rules. That part surprised me because one would think that the top generals and sergeants would want the best of the best, especially in setting an example for the new men and the rest of the world. One part that did not surprise me however is the little to no punishment received once the cases were investigated later on. The government will do anything to hide their mistakes or mistakes that they should have noticed or prevented in the first place. I am not surprised that these men did not receive harsh penalties for their actions.
ReplyDeleteUsing this book as a teaching aid is effective to detail the nightmare of Vietnam. It helps to discuss the dark side of the politics of the American military and demonstrating the U.S. is not always “the Good Guys”. War is horrible and makes men do horrible things to one another.
ReplyDeleteI thought Tiger Force did a good job describing the moral background for all of the different characters and demonstrating the influence a group of humans can have on one another. “Pack Mentality” is a powerful force and definitely swept through the Tiger Force team. I think it is easy to sympathize with the fact fear, anger and frustration drove these soldiers into such a brutal rage. But mutilating bodies, killing unarmed farmers, and cutting the head off an infant are such atrocities the men who carried out those acts should have been held responsible. Even more so, the commanders ordering, encouraging, and condoning their activities should have been the most severely punished. Human rights were violated and we should not tolerate these heinous acts no matter the circumstance. I believe the goal of the writers of Tiger Force was to hold these men accountable by naming them, showing their pictures and telling this story.
I really liked Tiger Force from the beginning. For me, not having any military background, it was interesting to know all the different aspect that the soldiers endured. The land I believe for these men was a battle in itself. The thought never really crossed my mind that they would have had to worry about the leaches to numerous amounts of poisonous snakes and the weather conditions prior to reading the book. I feel the book portrayed real emotions. It was hard to read about the things that this unit did to the innocent civilians but in guerilla warfare how do you really know. As the book progressed the retaliation progressed. It was hard to read about the baby incident let alone the ear souvenirs. I believe these men were pretty much used and abused by the military. When the company division would see the men in Tiger Force and talk about their physical appearance being diminished, it was like everyone knew they were on brink of disaster but no one did anything. They had no direction or limitations and no one to care about their mental and physical state. In the book the camaraderie start to diminish with the unit as well which I believe had a significant effect on the progressiveness of the mutilations and savagery. When the soldiers were being interviewed at home, it was hard to read about the struggles with PTSD and life in general after the war. All in all I enjoyed the book.
ReplyDeleteThe few things I didn’t really care for was the randomness of the book. The book had no real flow. It was there then there and back to here and all over of the place which made it confusing. I had to constantly look back a chapter or two to remember the previous situation that occurred. The second thing I disliked about the book was that it portrayed the unit in a bad light entirely. The things they did that were good for example helping the line companies out when needed were included; however from this book all I got was that Tiger Force did not actually find any enemy combatants but merely innocent civilians. I would like to get someone’s opinion of the book that actually served to see their reaction to all the different aspect. Do you think they would defend the soldiers maliciousness because of the type of war that is was or no?
I appreciate the insights and feedback re: Tiger Force. These comments will be helpful in deciding how to use the book in the future:)
ReplyDelete